Tony Scott: 0:21

Welcome to The Jay Franze Show, a behind-the-curtain look at the entertainment industry, with insights you can't pay for and stories you've never heard. Now here's your host, Jay Franze.

Jay Franze: 0:49

Well, hello, hello, hello and welcome to the show. I am Jay Franze and this is your Backstage Pass to the Music Industry. This week we get to talk with an amazing country music artist from Australia.

Jay Franze: 1:04

We get to talk with Katie Jayne. We'll talk to her about a night in Nashville, her production process and, well, we'll talk to her about how she handles PR. Now, katie, she is not just an amazing artist, she is an amazing person, and I can't wait to talk with her tonight. So if you would like to join in comment or fire off any questions, please head over to jayfranze. com. Now let's get started. Katie, my friend, how are you?

Katie Jayne: 1:33

Hi, jay, thanks so much for having me.

Jay Franze: 1:35

It is my pleasure. I cannot wait to start this tonight, but you are in Australia. What part of Australia are you?

Katie Jayne: 1:42

in. I'm about three hours inland from Sydney right now and I'm in the future because it is two o'clock in the afternoon on Tuesday.

Jay Franze: 1:49

Well, just don't share the lottery tickets. They get very upset over that, that's going to be our little secret. I ask you where you are because I actually went to school in Brisbane.

Katie Jayne: 2:00

Really, I was in Brisbane last week.

Jay Franze: 2:02

I went to UQ.

Katie Jayne: 2:04

That's very cool. It's about 10 hours drive for me. I drove down on the weekend so it's a little bit far.

Jay Franze: 2:10

Nice, all right. Well, let's just jump right in. Can you tell me about A Night in Nashville?

Katie Jayne: 2:16

A Night in Nashville. Yeah, it's a huge festival that we're going to be doing out in Orange in New South Wales. So the thing with country music in Australia is it's just exploded in the best way possible that we get to go and play country music events and venues not only in the capital cities, but we're getting out into rural areas as well. They're able to put on bigger events and I actually was really jealous last year. I wanted to get on the line up when they announced. I was like that's my goal for 2020. Well, it's going to be 2025.

Katie Jayne: 2:45

So I was really stoked when you know, I'd been dropping hints. I'd been on their socials liking their stuff and saying what a great event, like awesome. And it did come full circle. Thankfully, because I ended up getting on the bill with a bunch of my friends and I'm so excited. Hopefully, because I ended up getting on the bill with a bunch of my friends and I'm so excited. It's just one night in a barn, essentially, but it's a place for country music fans to all come together and celebrate the music that they love, and you know we need those places in Australia. It's not as readily available as America or Nashville.

Jay Franze: 3:15

Well, let's talk about that for a minute. What's the music scene like in Australia?

Katie Jayne: 3:22

It's honestly, look, it's the right time right now because we've just exploded with country music. So I've been out there doing my thing for years and I've had to do a lot of gigs that were essentially what they're called covers gigs, so just to go out and play every weekend to kind of keep yourself fed. So, you know, to keep busy, we'd go out and we play think corporate events or think pubs and clubs. But think you know pubs and clubs where you walk in and they're like no country and they know I'm a country artist so they have to say that to me no country. I'm like, come on, people will like it.

Katie Jayne: 3:48

And thankfully I made a decision 2024. I talked to my manager and I said, look, I've got a nine-to-five job now. I don't need to be working every weekend. I love it, but I don't need to be doing it and I only want to take the gigs that make my heart happy. So we're only going to do country music shows.

Katie Jayne: 4:04

You know, at that point there was some festivals around, there were some rural pubs that would do country stuff and and there was original shows where you do a showcase here and there, but there wasn't a lot for country music fans to go and do and when I said that I thought well, this would be nice, I'll get a couple of weekends off. I really work a lot as it is and my manager was on board as soon as we made the decision. Boom, country music exploded in Australia and the venues got on board and I work every weekend. So I did not get a break like I thought, but my heart is so happy and, honestly, every time we go play a show now, it fills my soul and it fills my cup 100%.

Jay Franze: 4:42

Well, again, you mentioned a couple of things in there I want to make sure that we cover, so let's start with country music. You said it's boom, so how well is it received there right now, and is it the traditional style country that you would find in Nashville?

Katie Jayne: 4:56

It's look, they're straddling the line. So I also work in commercial radio, so I get to see things from another lens as well and I've just secured a role. Actually, I probably shouldn't say this, but on Friday there's going to be an announcement. A big radio company in Australia is putting a lot into. It's a country music station that's about to be launched and I've just got the newsreader role. So if you've got any news you want to pass on to me, I'm going to need it.

Katie Jayne: 5:23

But it's interesting to watch the way they are straddling the line.

Katie Jayne: 5:27

So we have our traditional country radio that will play all of the genres, like whether it be, you know, more traditional country, that old sound which we are loving at the moment, which is so cool to see that come back with, like Zach at the moment, which is so cool to see that come back with, like Zach Topp and artists like that.

Katie Jayne: 5:40

And then there's a really commercialised pop country music which is moving into mainstream radio. So right now I'm at my desk job, my nine-to-five job, which, luckily for me, is radio, and I work on commercial radio. So I look at the logs and I'm talking about music all the time and more and more country music is being added, but it's more Morgan Wallen, dasha, that kind of pop, country, contemporary stuff that is flowing over to mainstream. So there is a bit of a gap to bridge. But I think with this new country radio and the way that the industry seems to be embracing it, there's going to be enough space for all the genres within the platform to have their moment, hopefully. So traditional country, new country, it's all about country here in Australia.

Jay Franze: 6:22

All right. So you mentioned traditional country and the kind of old school flavor, but you mentioned it coming back with artists like Zach Topp. So when you think of old school country, are you thinking 90s country?

Katie Jayne: 6:33

I'm thinking 90s and just a little bit before. Like I'm a massive Garth Brooks friend. I don't know if you can see my little cute tattoo but it says blame it all on my roots. You know I had a co-writer. Actually I'm releasing some music now and this co-writer is not doing a lot of music at the moment, but he's got this like old sound about him and I've I've been in love with that kind of voice. And Zach Topp's the first artist that I've seen that's come back into our market. That's bringing that old school sound I think just before the Garth Brooks era. I'd say that like old. I shouldn't say old should.

Jay Franze: 7:06

I.

Katie Jayne: 7:06

But to me that's like that more trad country style.

Jay Franze: 7:11

You recognize the fact that I'm old. I like that. I appreciate the awareness Well.

Katie Jayne: 7:15

I'm old too, but I'm just you know I'm thinking, are we going back to Merle Haggard Like I'm trying to think how long was that era before 90s country came in? Because I know that Garth sort of exploded that scene and pushed it into a mainstream market, but he still had a traditional sound to his voice. I know the production was a little bit more pop, but you know how long was that era?

Jay Franze: 7:35

Well, he really hit the scene in the 80s and he was a country music demo singer in Nashville for years and had a real hard time getting a record deal if you can believe that. And then when he did, he just blew up. But we look at him as if he was like a one of a kind you know somebody to blow up that big at that time. It just made country music what it is today. So that's kind of what the roots are based on in Australia. And then you said you also get the new school, the Morgan Wallens and so forth.

Katie Jayne: 8:07

Yeah, I think a lot of my coming up was you know, the Chicks, Keith Urban, I'm trying to think who. Oh, Miranda Lambert, Garth Brooks, that was sort of what I grew up on and what was sort of available to us at that time because it was such a genre. I remember actually I fell in love. Well, I fell in love with country music as a kid. But I was in Austin, Texas, maybe in my twenties and I'd always hidden my country music love. So I'd always like it was my dirty little secret that you don't tell anyone in Australia because it kind of makes you goofy and uncool. And I remember I was driving along. I wasn't driving because I was too scared.

Katie Jayne: 8:44

Wrong side of the road my friend was driving and on the radio Miranda Lambert's the House that Built Me came on and it was the first time I'd heard that song and I've obviously fell in love from a songwriter perspective. But as a country music fan I realized, oh my God, I don't have to hide. Like it just came on the radio, Like we didn't get that in Australia. You couldn't just readily access, you had to go and buy CDs and you hid it at your house and you listened to it on your own. You didn't tell anyone, you didn't share the music. So once I discovered that you could play Miranda Lambert in America and it was totally fine, I was loud, I was out of the closet, I was loud and proud, I come home and from there I was able to find the country music community and it's just grown and grown over the years. But to see it celebrated so amazingly right now, I'm so excited that it's happening.

Jay Franze: 9:31

I find it odd to say that it was kind of like a dirty little secret and you had to hide it because artists like Keith Urban he's from Australia- Well, if you get to talk to him, you know he was doing that covers scene.

Katie Jayne: 9:43

It's like Morgan Evans is in America now and he's from the town I was in, like just up the road and I'm playing rooms that he was playing. He had to do the covers grind. He had to do what I'm doing because it wasn't that work for country music. You know he made a name for himself here and I'm a big fan of his and to see him go to America and succeed is really encouraging for Australian artists to see him kind of follow the footsteps of Keith. But you know he had to do the same thing. It's just we don't have a lot of people here and they're very slow to pick up on how cool country is, but they're in on it now.

Jay Franze: 10:22

I moved to Nashville in 1999 and Keith Urban was the first artist I worked with. Oh wow, he was just the nicest guy yeah. So now that you're out of your hiding place, you're out of the closet when it comes to country music. So how have you now come into your own?

Katie Jayne: 10:40

Very interesting. Actually, we're just talking about Australia and the country music scene. I was late to. I've always been a fan, but I was late to being an artist. So I randomly moved to England and started my first country band there. So if you want to talk about a scene that's, you know, in hiding.

Jay Franze: 10:57

I was going to say, is country music in England at all?

Katie Jayne: 11:00

There is, there is, in hiding, uh, country music in england at all? There is, there is, and it was the same concept. You know that, uh, the community is there and it's hiding. And they had a couple of festivals and we got to play the london o2 arena. They had um c2c, which is where they bring the american artists over and, you know, bring out the country fans.

Katie Jayne: 11:15

And I started over there in a duo. So it was interesting to find my voice and find my, I guess, personality in a duo. So it was interesting to find my voice and find my, I guess, personality in a duo. And then when I had to come home, I had to start again and figure out who I am as a solo artist and what I wanted to say. And I think, interestingly enough, I went on a bit of a mental health journey at the same time and what I realized was I didn't have to be anything but myself. Like the experiences that I've gone through as a woman who loves country music, who lives that life, I can just write what I know and I think, and even the way I communicate on social media. It's just, it's very authentic and a little bit less like. It's not about perfection. It's about honesty, so being able to connect in that space well, and that's where we get the songs Like these songs of you. Know, I'm about to.

Katie Jayne: 12:02

I'm in the middle of an album project and I'm thinking about the title of this track of the album and I've worked out that basically the first song, that's the first, well, one of the songs on the album, the first written song, happened just like a decade ago, next year. So I want to call the album Decade, because there's a collection of 10 songs that have happened at all different points in my life over the 10 years and I think how perfect is that that they can all come together as one project. And it gets to be my debut album and I've I know who I am now and I know what I want to say and I know my sound, and it's just the collections of experiences that have happened to me over my life and I get to say, hey, hey, this is it and yeah, they're a bit sassy, but that's cool, a bit sassy, I love it yeah.

Jay Franze: 12:44

That's what draws me to your music in the first place is the sass. I have three daughters. I may have mentioned that to you once before, but I have three daughters and they're young, Even though I'm old. They're young, they're 14, 10, and my 10-year-old is just a ball of sass. It's just ridiculous how much sass that girl has.

Katie Jayne: 13:01

It's necessary, the sass for women, like, yeah, it's time for us to sort of stop being polite and quiet and shy and just go and get what we want, because no one's going to give it to us.

Jay Franze: 13:17

Real quick. You said when you were in England that they bring over American artists. I know we had Billy Yates on the show a while back and Billy Yates, big songwriter, wrote songs for Garth Brooks, as a matter of fact, and he was on Sony Records for years and he asked to be released from his record deal because he was doing better at promoting his stuff than the record label was. And the record label released him and since then he's had 13 number one hits around the world. But he has more success around the world than he does here in the states. And part of that is like you're saying, when they invite american artists over there, I don't know who's bringing the artists over there, but when they go over there you say they bring over american artists. So is that a normal practice?

Katie Jayne: 14:00

yeah, that's the. They're the drawcard. So the festivals that we have here. You know we've got something called CMC Rocks which is a huge festival. It's like I'm just pulling numbers out, it's like 22,000 people. It sells out and they bring over big American artists to draw the crowd in and then they pepper it with Australian artists as well. Sometimes they'll grab some artists from the UK, because it's a growing scene as well, and then the American artists will tour. So they'll go out and they'll hit all the capital cities after the festival as well.

Katie Jayne: 14:28

So there's definitely a market for American artists. We've got Luke Holmes coming over. His tickets sold out so quickly. Like even I sat here and I wasn't even going to go because I went last time he was in. I was going to say in town but in the country, but I still sat there because I was like someone's going to want these tickets. So I'll just sit here and wait until I get through. But yeah, there's so much touring American artists coming. It does give a platform for Australian artists too, because I think they have to have an Aussie support, like even if they're maybe third down on the bill. But there's definitely a market for it and bringing American country music is sort of leading the way. We play it on our radio. It's the leader of country music and the Australians. We're just trying to get our voice in the mix and that's cool.

Jay Franze: 15:12

Well, is there any Australian artist that has the level of success that an American artist has?

Katie Jayne: 15:21

Just Keith Urban.

Jay Franze: 15:24

Within Australia, not the ones who have left.

Katie Jayne: 15:27

Honestly, it is trending that way. We have James Johnson I'd say is probably leading Casey Barnes. We've got Lee Kernighan, who's probably our highest paid touring artist. He's a legacy artist. He's been around for years and been pioneering live shows. He's a really good performer. I've gone to his shows like thinking I wonder what the hype is about. And I leave the show and I'm like oh yeah, he's good, you know. And we've got Casey Chambers as well, who's crossed over to mainstream. But he's definitely a country music artist, you know. She's got a very unique voice and a storytelling style and somehow she cracked the code and went mainstream. So I think for artists in Australia, going mainstream in Australia is where you make it big and then, if you can try and get over to America and be competitive in that industry too, which is a big, big dream. So but I do think, yeah, there's a lot of push for artists coming through now. They're really getting a lot more recognition than what we had before in the journey up.

Jay Franze: 16:28

All right, you mentioned it'd be a big, big dream. Now would you really want to leave your career in radio to move to the States to take a chance at being an artist?

Katie Jayne: 16:39

Look, I said it's a big dream, but not mine. I did a lot of traveling and honestly, I'm so tired. I started from the bottom here. I've worked my way up and I've still got a long way in front of me, and I know for me to go to Nashville. I've spent some time in Nashville. I was actually on an episode of the TV show Nashville once. That's my five seconds of fame.

Katie Jayne: 17:02

But for me that is probably a bit too much for my poor little heart to handle. I think starting from the bottom in a town like that it's hard enough to do it here and I've put so much into it here. So for me probably not the dream. But I know for a lot of upcoming artists in Australia the dream is to take it to the top. And that's the top.

Jay Franze: 17:22

Well, yeah, I mean they call Nashville a 10-year town. So just think about it. If you went over there now and started over and had to go through another 10, years.

Katie Jayne: 17:33

I'm just about to hit my 10 years here, so I'm trying to make it here.

Jay Franze: 17:38

But that's what I'm saying. I mean, you have a career in radio and you are playing shows on a regular basis every weekend you're literally making a living and doing it yeah it's just a different, just a different type, different way of doing it I agree.

Katie Jayne: 17:57

yeah, I'd rather do it that way. That's exactly what I was going to say, because I've learned to chase joy instead of chase success and like on the back of that, I mean, like I've realized, I am already successful. You know, I get to play my music to country music fans and that's enough For me, that's enough.

Jay Franze: 18:14

Of course. Yes, I believe that 100% and I probably wouldn't have thought that earlier in my career. I mean because I'm one of the ones who moved to Nashville to to make it big, and not as an artist. I worked as an engineer, but I still moved.

Jay Franze: 18:29

I had a career in New York and I moved to Nashville just because I wanted to to be part of that scene and work my way up, and it took about 10 years for that to happen. Yeah, but one of the things you mentioned in there was storytelling. Country music is built on stories. I mean, that's what it's all about, especially when you're in. Nashville, you have all these songwriter nights where you go and you tell the story of the song and then the writers sit there and perform it. So how important to you is songwriting or storytelling when it comes to songwriting?

Katie Jayne: 19:03

it's all about the story. Um, one of the things about my career is that I was really late to the game. I was 25 before I even started my musical career and I couldn't clap on time. I couldn't sing in key, I didn't know about harmonies, but the one thing I always had was stories and and songwriting. I I'm a natural songwriter. I didn't know that. I didn't know about harmonies, but the one thing I always had was stories and songwriting. I'm a natural songwriter. I didn't know that. I didn't know. That was a thing I didn't know.

Katie Jayne: 19:25

People struggled to create weird stories in their head because that's what I just did all the time and I had to learn every other element of music so I could create those stories. I'm obsessed with the stories Like I will listen to. You know the House. It Built Me. That song lived with me as soon as I heard that story pieced together and how she created that visual representation. I just fell in love with that song because of the way that that story was painted.

Katie Jayne: 19:53

And sometimes it takes a long time to tell that story and piece it together and make it perfect and sometimes the song just really flows straight through you and out you and there's nothing you can do about it and that's how the song is.

Katie Jayne: 20:06

It's like sometimes it's your creation and sometimes it's just it's just flowed out and you can't even change a word. If you wanted to Like say the word sounds a little stupid, because you're like your ego gets in the way and you think, oh, this is not smart enough or clever enough, but you also know that the story it's too bad, so sad. That's how the story wants to go, so you have to get out of the way. But it's the most enjoyable part of my job. I love performing 100%. But writing songs even if I have so many that will never see the light of day and some are terrible and some are great, but you'll never see them. You'll never see them, you never hear them. But just the process of it's like putting a little puzzle together and letting the pieces fall into place it's the most rewarding thing about music for me.

Jay Franze: 20:49

Before I became an engineer, I was work or living in Massachusetts. I grew up in Boston and it was a rock scene and I wanted to be part of it. So bad and and I play instruments, I play keyboards, I play bass guitar Not well, but I play them enough that I was able to join a band and do things. But I realized two things real quick I loved writing songs and I loved being in the studio capturing those songs, much better than playing live or anything else, because I liked having a product in my hand that I could leave with and play over and over again and just have something to capture that that period of time. And I also realized well now that I know what other musicians are really capable of I know I'm not, so that's when I became an engineer and that's that's my world so more capable of being an engineer than I am actually a musician.

Katie Jayne: 21:42

I think that's difficult, though, because I believe that people who aren't talented like this is gonna sound really weird. Sorry, this is on a tangent, but like, think of Bob Dylan. Right, like for me to keep doing what I do, because I've always thought, oh, there's other people that are better out there than me, but I, even though I'm not that good, I still have something to say. Like my voice should still be representing. So, like you know, you say that about your ability, but like you still have the essence there. That just because it's not perfect, like I'm not Mariah Carey, doesn't mean I shouldn't sing. Like I've still got something to say, so it's interesting music. I've still got something to say, so it's interesting music.

Jay Franze: 22:18

That might be the reason why I like the studio, because I can keep performing until it's correct. Nobody knows how long it took me to get it right.

Katie Jayne: 22:29

But even if you get it wrong, it's still right. It's just expression, it's the basic expression. Some people are just perfect at it, naturally, and others like me, are just not All right.

Jay Franze: 22:43

So we talk about storytelling and I mentioned earlier that you kind of have an anthem style of writing, that you write songs that have a purpose. So when you sit down to write a song, do you have that in mind already.

Katie Jayne: 23:03

Do you have that kind of vision? No, I, I just let whatever is going to fall out fall out. I think sometimes, you know, something will trigger me, like I have a song called do it like a man, and I remember where I was the day that song kind of existed, came into existence. That one was not, that just happened. I was. I'd read a statistic. You know things are happening to you as an artist and you're sort of taking them on board subconsciously to be recycled as songs. But I remember this one was I'd read a statistic that when applying for a job, men would look at the criteria and if they hit a couple of the marks they'd just be like yep sweet, apply for the job. Women, yeah, yeah, well, close enough, right, whereas women. I don't know if this will be a shock to you, but it was a shock to me that when faced with the same application, a woman would look at the criteria and she wouldn't even apply if she didn't hit all of them, all of them.

Katie Jayne: 23:49

I was like what? And very soon after that I was faced with an application. It was a mentorship for women in music or something and I was filling it out and it came to a section where it said why, why should you get this? And I was like, oh, I shouldn't. I was like I went to stop and I was like, no, do it like a man. Do it like like, go for it just because I don't think I'm qualified or good enough, or, you know, I can get in my own way, but men don't do that like it's a celebration of the fact that I don't. I'm not a product of my raising. I can change, you know, everything that's been put on me as a woman, to be kind, to be sweet, to be demure, to be like a doormat. You know I don't have to do any of that.

Katie Jayne: 24:31

So that song was, you know it was written in that aspect, but that song very nearly didn't even get recorded. And there's so many other songs like that, so they all get recorded, and there's so many other songs like that, so they all get written. And then I think at the end I choose the one that's going to represent how I'm really feeling right now and what I want to say to the world. That, you know, gets the money put into it because it's very expensive to record songs. So you, you have to think about what's, what's working with your profile what you want to put out next. The last song Like there's a lot of thought that goes with it, and that song got passed over for about five years until it finally ended up in the recording studio.

Jay Franze: 25:07

Yeah, A couple of things on that note. The example you used couldn't have been more spot on, especially for this time in my life, because, like you described, if I'm applying for a job, I see a couple of things in there. I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm good, I've got that covered. I can, you know, get my way through the rest of it? My wife just recently applied and she got the job, thank God. But she just recently applied and she's a history major and applied for this job for the state of Kentucky in the library and archives.

Jay Franze: 25:40

And she was looking at it and she's like well, I don't meet the qualifications, and she was going to let it go. I said talk to me. What are we missing? She goes. Well, it says you have to have a master's degree. I said well you do. She goes I don't yet, I don't graduate until December. I'm like, stop, just apply for the job. It'll take that long before they respond to you anyway, and they didn't care, they didn't care at all. So I'm like just go for it, you have to.

Katie Jayne: 26:12

And that's it, go for it. And that's so frustrating. When I realized that that was a gendered thing, I was like, oh, that's stupid. I didn't realize that it's a conditioning of the way we're raised. But you can change that at any point by just saying oh, stuff it, I'm gonna go for it anyway well, you mentioned do it like a man.

Jay Franze: 26:25

Now, that song is a little different than the rest of your songs. It's a little slower, it's got a little bit more melodic feel to it, like from the instrumentation, like the guitar has got a very melodic feel to it, but has one of my favorite instruments, a B3, in the background and it's got a use of reverb in the song, so it gives it a little bit of airiness. So when you recorded that song, how much influence on the production did you have?

Katie Jayne: 26:56

And was there a producer involved? Yeah, so this project is. We're doing 10 tracks. I've released five of them and I just laid vocals down on the 10th one last week while I was up in Brisbane.

Katie Jayne: 27:03

I sort of went through a process of finding myself before I started this project, because I started my career thinking I needed to be a cute little blonde country artist. You know like I thought I had to be what they wanted me to be, which was emulating what was already out there, which is dumb. Don't ever do that, because it's oversaturated and if it doesn't come natural to you, then it's not going to work. So I had been through a few producers and I'd released a bunch of songs as I was finding my way through that process and I got to a point where I was like you know what? I always felt not good enough and always felt like I should listen to my producer and they should be the guiding voice. But that's stupid, because I'm the only one who can make my music. It's got to be what's inside me and once I realized that I needed to go a lot more country than I was, and at that stage country wasn't having this moment. So this was a selfish decision. This was me saying okay, I've got a nine to five job. Now I'm putting my money away Like I'm saving, like I've never saved before, Should have bought a house, but this is all me now. So what is going to make me happy and what kind of music?

Katie Jayne: 28:10

And I realized that I want to make music like the like the women I grew up on. Like that was as simple as it had to be. I was like, oh, I don't have to try and keep up with the trend, I don't have to sort of follow on what people are releasing in the Australian landscape or even in Nashville or America. But I just wanted to make music that makes me happy and that I would listen to. So I needed to find a producer that was on board with that, that liked me and liked my music.

Katie Jayne: 28:35

So I remember when I approached Jared Adlam he's in Brisbane and liked my music. So I remember when I approached Jared Adlam he's in Brisbane and he's blown up. Since I started working with him he's just done all the James Johnson stuff, the Lee Kernighan stuff, Like he's one of the top producers now. But I remember being on the phone to him and I'm like if you don't like it, then just let me know and I'll go find someone else. And I didn't mean it to be so harsh. If you don't like me, you don't like my songs, just tell me, and just really quickly tell me, because I don't have a lot of time, you know.

Katie Jayne: 29:08

So he was into what I was doing and I felt I could be a bit more authoritative in the space, and the working relationship has been great. He's allowed me to have a voice, but he's also very talented and I trust him when he has something to say and he's not afraid to say it to me either, which is good, so lucky. I'm glad I found him and I'm glad the working relationship is good. And even this last one, he came back with a demo so quickly and it was exactly what I wanted, because we'd done nine songs together, Like he already knew what I wanted and I was like see that like makes it so quick and easy, you know.

Jay Franze: 29:39

You mentioned being selfish and doing the style of music you like, and I think that's by far the way to go, because you can't build a career and perform for the rest of your life on songs that aren't you ones that you don't believe in. So the fact that you take the songs in the direction that you believe they should be, in the way that you want them to be, is a great thing. But you mentioned two things One, a producer's input and two, the amount of money it takes to record these songs.

Jay Franze: 30:08

Both big, important things. It takes a lot of money to record songs. I mean. I know it does in Nashville. I'm assuming the costs are pretty much the same over there. So who is assembling the team of people, the musicians, the engineer, the studio? Who's assembling all that? Is that the producer, or do you have a hand in that?

Katie Jayne: 30:30

It's pretty easy in this case because Jared is a multi-instrumentalist, he brings in a drummer, so I had choice of the drummer. Well, it's so funny because I used a drummer, so I had choice of the drummer. Well, it's so funny because, uh, I used a drummer that I work with all the time and we brought him into the studio and then I think the second time we recorded it was just whoever was available, because it got to the point where the guy I was using was out on tour and then Jared's got a really good friend who's a drummer, who plays on everyone's session at that point. So so you know, that cost me on top pay the drummer. We get some instruments from Nashville.

Katie Jayne: 31:02

Tim Crouch was on my last single I Don't Get Mad, I Get Even. He played fiddle and banjo and we sort of let him. I had to pay per track or whatever, but we sort of just let him do what he wanted across a bunch of the songs because we didn't want to impede him and I knew it was going to cost me but I also knew I wanted to invest in whatever was best for the song. So Jared's liaising those relationships and bringing the drummer in and working out that timeframe because I'm travelling up to do it, and then anything else that's all down to me when it comes to, like, pr or the funds and all that sort of stuff.

Jay Franze: 31:37

That's a good point too, but before we get there, you said he plays multiple instruments Does he also engineer the projects.

Katie Jayne: 31:46

Yeah, it's just Jared and his studio and me.

Jay Franze: 31:50

So it's his personal studio? Yeah, he plays the instruments and occasionally will hire somebody from Nashville to color in some tracks.

Katie Jayne: 31:58

And then we'll send it away. He'll mix it and I do know that he has worked with some other artists where they've sent it over to mixing engineers in Nashville and you know that's obviously a possibility. But for me, jared knows that I'm essentially on a budget. I'm a smaller creator. Look at that social media, god. I'm a smaller artist and he really works hard to keep it within. He's drank the Kool-Aid. Yeah Well, I mean, that's my secret weapon, direct-to-consumer. So the industry I'm going around them. They don't want to borrow me.

Katie Jayne: 32:34

We definitely need to talk about that, for sure, yeah but yeah look, jared works with me and it's it's a great relationship, but he does a lot of the heavy lifting.

Jay Franze: 32:43

I know you mentioned you recorded these songs over a period of 10 years. That we're going to call a decade, because that makes perfect sense and it's probably a good good title for an album.

Katie Jayne: 32:52

So thanks, I still deciding, but you've got me.

Jay Franze: 32:56

So, as we talk about these songs that came together over a decade, do you consider remixing the songs now so that they all kind of feel similar?

Katie Jayne: 33:09

So I may have misspoke, but they were written over a decade period of a decade, and then they were all recorded in the last year.

Jay Franze: 33:17

So they're all recorded as a group.

Katie Jayne: 33:18

Yeah, I really wanted them to be sonic that was the point of finding the producer and sonically I really wanted everything to be really cohesive with this essentially new sound, but more just, more natural sound. That's for me, and I think one of the things I said to the producer was I want to be able to replicate these on stage as they are recorded. So we went in there knowing that if they were too overproduced I wouldn't want to play them, and that's happened. There's, I've got some beautiful songs. We get them on stage with the band and I'm running as a three piece and unless we're using tracks, which I don't want to do yet I just want to be able to have the same impact on the record as I can on stage. So you know they're all recorded together but written over a period of 10 years.

Jay Franze: 34:01

PR. So you mentioned PR and you mentioned you also mentioned having a manager. So what is the role that that manager takes? If you're handling the PR, the direct-to-consumer as we're going to call it, what role does your manager take?

Katie Jayne: 34:19

So basically, my manager in my agreement is quite casual. We've been working together for a long time and essentially we're looking at, like, what are the assets that I have? So the money that I put away? That's an asset management. I work with Mike V and one of the things he does for me is that man can get a gig. He's got me busy, he's got my price up and what that in turn does gives me more input back into my music so I can keep that money and reinvest it as well as my nine to five job and it gets me out to the people. Like we are going out, you know, nine to 10 hours each way just to get to a gig and play for the night. So it's, it's a good asset to have. And also I I know it's going to sound really stupid, but like he's a white man, like a middle-aged white man, and that just gives me so much more um control over my product.

Jay Franze: 35:11

Yeah, I have an email address because you're talking to a middle-aged white man. It doesn't sound funny to me at all because you know it's I've.

Katie Jayne: 35:19

I honestly, I have this email address that he has access to. I've set it up and I said look, you know I had some issues with my band and I had to call him and I said I need you. They're not respecting me, listening to me, doing you know, I am pulling my hair out, trying to lead a band and they are walking all over me and I said I need a middle-aged white man, can you please jump in? And he's like. He's looking at me, like you are Like what do you mean? And I'm like look, trust me, I need this.

Katie Jayne: 35:44

This is the one thing that's going to help me keep everyone in line and give me a little bit more respect and credibility, and it works like a charm. We've got an email address. I use it, I send it out, and the responses on that email address when they think they're talking to my manager, compared to when they think they're talking to me, is chalk and cheese. Like I knew it was a thing, but I'm shocked every time. So he's great at you know, and he's great at chasing money too, like when we're owed money.

Jay Franze: 36:10

It's really difficult for me to go and do that, yeah, do it like a man, or or grab one, just borrow one for a second, you know oh I laugh, I laugh you know I mentioned billy yates earlier and how he left sony and went off on his own, and one of the things he mentioned on the show that he did was he acted like he was his own pr team and his own manager and he would send out the emails. Yes, he said it was great for a while, till he went on these radio tours and he was supposed to go to lunch with these people, he's like.

Jay Franze: 36:42

At some point I had to crack a little bit, he goes. I was denying lunches left and right because I wasn't a person, I wasn't real.

Katie Jayne: 36:52

See, at least my manager would go do it. I call him sometimes and I said, oh, I think you're going to have to go have a meeting with this, whoever it is, and he's like okay, no worries, he's great, I love it.

Jay Franze: 37:03

It's good, that's awesome. Well, you've got all these songs and you also.

Katie Jayne: 37:19

you mentioned playing these shows, and you just said you're driving 10 hours out of whack to play some shows. Is it worth it financially?

Jay Franze: 37:23

uh, no what if you say is it worth it? Yes, right, I know, I know it's worth it.

Katie Jayne: 37:26

It's not terrible, like I'm still building my profile and we're definitely on a um. It's hard. It's if I wasn't releasing music and had that cost. Yeah, it's a great income. You know, like I'd quit me.

Jay Franze: 37:38

I'd quit this day job I do love radio, but I'd be like I'm so tired whoa, whoa, you're sitting at your job, you don't?

Katie Jayne: 37:48

don't utter those words I've turned the mic on so no one will come in. Uh, we could be going live to air right now.

Jay Franze: 37:54

Yeah, we don't know.

Katie Jayne: 37:56

To be fair, my job knows that and they are very supportive of what I do. Like you know, sometimes I'll need afternoons off to duck off and they're pretty good. It's just. Yeah, it's a great income if you don't have the expense that goes with a recording artist's career. So you know there's a lot of money. The money you can put into this job is like it's uncapable. I could sink as much as I want into this and I would have, you know, hopefully recoup maybe way, way, way back on the back end.

Jay Franze: 38:30

Oh, it's never, never ending.

Katie Jayne: 38:32

Yeah, right now I want to get to a point where I can recoup, and the only way I can see doing that is touring, and that's ready. I've just got to build that fan base and get to a point where I'm doing ticketed shows. Right now, venues are hiring us. It's a great way to do it. There's no risk involved and you get a great country crowd that they don't have to pay to be there either. So they're recouping over the bar and that's how that sort of is flowing for the venues. But for me to make serious cash and recoup on what I'm doing, I'll need to get into Ticketed and I'll need to be out touring and that will happen at one point when I'm ready to take on that challenge, I think.

Jay Franze: 39:09

Well, as you're at that transition point, looking back at where you've come from so far, what is different?

Katie Jayne: 39:19

I didn't think I could ever be this busy and I didn't think I could ever be that confident on stage. I think if a 25-year-old me was looking at me now, she'd be blown away. She'd be losing her mind the fact that we can go out and entertain a country crowd and everyone's happy and they're all having such a good time and I'm running a band, I'm commanding them on stage Like that girl who couldn't even clap on time like she'd be blown away. I think it just shows that whatever you're passionate about, if you're really willing to put the work in, you like people say, oh I can't play guitar, you could if you played three hours a day and practiced Like. That's the difference. You know you need to really love it and when you love it, you will work as hard as you can to make it something that you can do, you know. So that's the difference. I get to call this my job now, which is amazing.

Jay Franze: 40:12

Drive, passion and time. This my job now, which is amazing. Drive, passion and time those are the things that make somebody successful.

Katie Jayne: 40:18

Talent is great. And never quitting, yeah, talent, talent, talent is great but you don't need it.

Jay Franze: 40:23

You need time, passion and drive. Yeah, so you're playing these bars, these small venues.

Katie Jayne: 40:31

Yeah.

Jay Franze: 40:32

What kind of crazy stuff have you seen so far?

Katie Jayne: 40:38

small venues. Yeah, what kind of crazy stuff have you seen so far? It's uh, actually it's probably me, that's the crazy one.

Katie Jayne: 40:42

Um, I've seen some videos. Yeah, you know what I'm about to say actually. Uh, so this, this all happened. It all kicked off at one venue. Uh, we were on the the east coast of australia, just up from sydney, and we're playing a country night, country night. And again it's a venue that is like a covers venue, that we would have played as a covers venue. We said no to them, we stopped doing covers and all of a sudden now they've got country nights every month and so we're back. So we're doing a country night and there's this cowboy at the front of the stage and I'm wearing a shirt that's a little crop top that I make myself. I make my own merch and I have a song called Boy's Lie and this shirt, this brand, like whatever this apparel everyone loves it.

Jay Franze: 41:19

It's become a brand, for sure.

Katie Jayne: 41:20

It's crazy. I don't even know if they know this. They probably don't know the song, but they love the shirt. So this boy looks at me and he's very cute, very handsome cowboy. And he goes. He said'm and I remember the split second in my head I'm like okay, and I ripped it off. And he ripped off his shirt and he put my cute little crop top on. It looked so good and he had his little cowboy hat on and we got some shots from it and then we sang that you look good in my shirt song, uh, keith Urban. It was just a really funny moment. But I got, uh, some of the social media, some of the like shots I put on social media as a tiktok and it just went.

Jay Franze: 41:56

It went crazy and I was like oh, you say, you say he looked great in your shirt, but meanwhile you're standing there topless no, I put his shirt on. It's a shirt swap so it's like you can have a video. How long did it take you to get that shirt on?

Katie Jayne: 42:09

no, you're thinking so that was the Denny Ute muster. So so that's Sam. I have such a huge crush on Sam, so now we'll fast forward. We've done the shirt swap a few times. It's become a thing.

Katie Jayne: 42:19

And I see Sam, the Denny Ute muster is. It's in Deniliquin in Australia and it's this huge Ute show but it goes over three days and huge artists. They bring American artists in and there's a big stage and there's bars. There's a few bars in the area. So think of like a huge paddock, you know dust and dirt and country crew, country crowd, like they love it, and we are playing the bars. We're playing five hour shows, like we are there just to party with the punters.

Katie Jayne: 42:46

And I see this guy, sam. I'm looking over and he gives me a big smile and I'm like, okay. And then I'm on a break and he hits on me. He said, oh, if you're not busy later. And I'm like, oh, here we. And then I'm on a break and he hits on me. He said, oh, if you're not busy later. And I'm like, oh, here we go, he goes. You want to get married? And I was like hello, and he's sitting down at this point. And I said, oh, look, I can't. I was seeing a guy at the time. I was like, damn it, I can't, but do you want to get up? I do, I'm on stage and I give him the cue and I said, oh, I reckon we need to bring up a hot cowboy. And this guy stands up. I didn't realize how tall he was. He was like oh my god, it was insane. And he gets up on my stage. I'm like how is he ever gonna fit my shirt?

Katie Jayne: 43:29

barely covered his boob barely it was, and then he gave me. So we did the shirt swap and the crowd went crazy and he gave me his shirt and he's like I didn't even bother putting it on. If you look at the video I'm just like what is the point?

Katie Jayne: 43:41

I just held it up the address I was like he's gonna look so ugly with my boots I'm not putting it on, but he was in my crop. And you know the social media again, we got over a million views on each platform and so just for me and I know this sounds, I don't know how this sounds, but it's clicked in my head that I just need attention, right, and if a shirt swap one thing with that, it's always in a country setting. It's always targeting my demographic. You know the country crowd that wants to get rowdy at a gig. So we are being strategic, but we're also being cheeky and we are taking that attention because you know I need eyeballs and ears on my product for it to gain any traction, you know.

Jay Franze: 44:20

So it is quite fun doing it, but yeah, it's uh, it's very cheeky okay, first of all, I'm gonna try this my next appearance, when I'm emceeing an event or something, I'm gonna do a shirt swap and see how well it goes over.

Katie Jayne: 44:35

You think that'll go over as long as you film it, film it and put it on the internet, and then you'll know.

Jay Franze: 44:39

Two things Nobody wants to see me without a shirt on, and it's not happening.

Katie Jayne: 44:46

Well, if I come over there, where are we? Kentucky, today?

Jay Franze: 44:49

We are in Kentucky today, or what I call North Nashville.

Katie Jayne: 44:53

North Nashville, you can get up on my stage to do a shirt swap with me.

Jay Franze: 44:58

Okay, I'll hold you to it Again. Nobody on earth is going to want to see it, but with you there, the eyes won't be on me, so I'm okay with it. Oh, that's funny. All right, so you go back to the eyeballs being on you and the attention and so forth. So that's the world of social that we live in these days. So you're running your own social. So how much time does that take?

Katie Jayne: 45:21

So a university degree and then all of my time Social media. I'm very good at it. I developed a relationship with social media early on in my career because I wasn't anyone's darling or sweetheart. You know, I wasn't the industry's champion. There was a. There are a lot of artists and some seem to be champions and they get a little bit of an easier ride. They get access to festivals and radio play and stuff like that I was is never on the cards for me and that's fair enough. I don't like, I don't hold that against anyone, that's fine. It's just the hand I was dealt but I wasn't gonna sit like, I wasn't gonna stand for that.

Katie Jayne: 45:58

So for me, using social media to build a community around my music and around my brand was a way to sort of bypass the industry and go direct to consumer, direct to people who are going to buy my merch and stream my music. So I've put a lot of effort and energy into building that community and figuring out how to, you know, game the algorithm. I'm not perfect at it, but I definitely know how valuable it is and I've you know people come to shows because of things like TikTok, like because I persevere on it and because I have my target demographic in mind. I just won't give up on it and, just like my music career, I'm like a dog with bone it'll, it'll pay off in the end.

Katie Jayne: 46:37

So these shirt swaps are just a small part of what we're we're doing on social media, but, um, it's definitely key. It's, it's free advertising, it's marketing. You know, and if a lot of artists hate social media, and I hate that, they have to use it, but for me it's like if we go back 20 years, that's was just like labels going, you know, taking an ad out in the newspaper to position you as the next big thing. Like, you can do that with social media. You can position yourself as the next big thing just by gaming the system or using it as a free marketing tool.

Jay Franze: 47:08

No, absolutely. I can't say enough about it. Like it or not, it's the world we live in. You obviously are doing very well at it. You get thousands of followers and it's growing every day, but you just mentioned a university degree, as well as the time. Do you actually have a degree in this?

Katie Jayne: 47:26

I just finished. Well, technically, that's why I was in Brisbane doing a work placement. I had to finish one last course because when I got a day job these day jobs I never have them when I got one of those I was like, oh, I stopped my degree because I had two subjects, but my mum just kept on me. She really wanted me to graduate, but I well, I didn't care about that.

Katie Jayne: 47:48

When I came back to Australia, I was getting the run around by like this industry person who was kind of taking my money for advice or whatever like, and I always felt really stupid, like they were using terminology I didn't understand and they really wanted to keep me in the dark because I would be paying them per project or monthly or whatever they could get out of it. And I got really frustrated and just knew I needed to get educated. So we talk about assets in the industry, like money is an asset you know you use that to create your songs and stuff like that and knowledge is an asset as well. So when I realized that was a weakness of mine, I was being like I felt really stupid. Anyway, I went to uni and I chose a degree that I could cherry pick courses based on what I felt it's called creative industries. They've discontinued it since, essentially, I have a communications degree, so skills I didn't realize I needed were like how to write a press release, how to do creative writing or media for storytelling.

Katie Jayne: 48:47

There was a lot like just business, like thinking about things like stakeholders and sponsorships, like if you think about the people that you're utilizing within your business and if you think of it like a business. I mean that you know all of that was unavailable to me before I went to university. That mindset of going okay, cool, like you know, this is how I build my business and this is how I'm going to recoup and make it a profitable business, at the same time of, like, I love music and I get to make music. Do you know what I mean? So it's combining that passion and obsession and figuring out how to get it. And I needed to get smart and so, yeah, I've just finished my last course, I just have to do a 2000 word report and I should pass with flying colors and I get to graduate next year. So it took me six years.

Jay Franze: 49:34

All right. Well, we do this thing here we call Unsung Heroes, where we take a moment to shine the light on somebody who's worked behind the scenes or somebody that may have supported you along the way. Do you have anybody that you'd like to shine a little light on?

Katie Jayne: 49:46

There's heaps. I have a community called Kate's Mates which is essentially it's a fan group, but they've been there from the first day. You know, we we used to do they join me every week for a live on Facebook and then when everyone started doing lives on Facebook, we turned it into a zoom and we did that. You know, they've been there for years and they've made all the difference. The Kate's Mates, because they've been in the social well, not just social they come to the shows like they're the ones, like they're the ones that they make people believe that my product's worth buying into, because essentially it's social proof. You know there's people there championing me behind the scenes and they see how hard we work and they help me.

Katie Jayne: 50:25

You know, one of my Kate's mates actually comes to my shows and does my merch. So let's shout out to Merch Mark, he drives us, he's driving us down to Goomer on the weekend. He's got a trailer that helps with the gear and he, he brings the merch. He's got a table, he's got a light, he's got the whole thing. And you know, I was really hesitant to even ask him to help me because I didn't have any money to pay him and I just couldn't do it on my own, so I just would never bring merch. And he kind of just told me in no uncertain terms just give it it to me, I'll do it. And what he's done with the merch desk is just amazing. So we made him a cute little shirt that says Merchmark and he's got a little bit of a celebrity at gigs now and he sits there and he sells. You know it's a couple hundred bucks or 500 bucks or whatever it is. It's just, it makes all the difference. People wear my stuff, they have that brand recognition wear my stuff.

Jay Franze: 51:16

They have that brand recognition and we've got money to recoup.

Katie Jayne: 51:18

Everybody wears your stuff, everybody, it's very cool.

Jay Franze: 51:21

A big thanks to Katie for taking the time to share stories with us. And thank you for taking the time to hang with me here, as always, I really do appreciate it. If you know anyone that would enjoy this episode, please be sure to pass it along. You can do that and find the links to everything mentioned over at jayfranze. com/ episode 104. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.

Tony Scott: 51:47

Thanks for listening to The Jay Franzy Show. Make sure you visit us at jayfranze. com Follow, connect and say hello.