Tony Scott: 0:21

Welcome to The Jay Franze Show, a behind-the-curtain look at the entertainment industry, with insights you can't pay for and stories you've never heard. Now here's your host, Jay Franze.

Jay Franze: 0:48

And we are coming at you live. I am Jay Franze and this is your source for the latest news, reviews and interviews. So if you would like to join in, comment or fire off any questions, please head over to jayfranze. com. All right, folks, tonight we have a very special guest with us. We do. We have a very special guest. We have the son of a music icon. We have the son of Harry Chapin Halen from the great state of New York. We have Jason Chapin. Jason, sir, how are you?

Jason Chapin: 1:20

I'm great.

Jay Franze: 1:20

Jay. Well, let's go ahead and just jump right in. I know your dad. He had a passion for making documentaries. Is that where your passion for making this documentary came from?

Jason Chapin: 1:30

Well, yeah, he was making documentaries before he signed his record contract with Electra Records and he was making films about boxing. He actually got an Oscar nomination for a film called Legendary Champions, which was the early years of boxing Really unusual film and he also did a bunch of commercials. He also did a couple films for the World Bank, one on Ethiopian famine. So I think we can talk about how that had an impact on him later. And he actually was working on a couple films now and then in the middle of his music career because he really enjoyed the craft and he wanted to make a documentary about his grandfather, kenneth Burke, who's a pretty well-known person in literary circles.

Jay Franze: 2:20

Now, we always say the key to a good song is a good story, and your dad was a master storyteller, so do you feel as if his ability to tell stories helped him when it came to making documentaries?

Jason Chapin: 2:33

Yeah, and he liked to meet people and he liked to observe people and I think that just any given day he would see something, hear something and it would be a kernel for a song. And a lot of you know different experiences he would piece together songs. A lot of the songs were semi-biographical, but there are a lot of songs that were also just about my mother. So you know some of his love songs were about her. He wrote a couple of songs about different family members which were purely biographical, but you know a couple of songs that were about him and he also always tried to have a couple of little twists and turns. So there are a couple of songs where he told different audiences that it meant one thing and then he told another audience it meant another thing and then he told family members it was really about something else. So we're still trying to figure out some of those songs.

Jay Franze: 3:28

Now, do you think you'll ever find the truth?

Jason Chapin: 3:32

Maybe when we meet in heaven.

Jay Franze: 3:34

Now, it's my understanding that this is the second documentary, so before we get too deep into this one, can you tell us a little bit about the first one?

Jason Chapin: 3:44

In 2020, we put out a documentary called Harry Chapin when in Doubt Do Something, which was all about his life, his music and his humanitarian work, and that was the only film that we were really planning on doing. It was well-received and, you know, we were happy to get it out there. But then we were really planning on doing. It was well received and we were happy to get it out there. But then we were thinking about a couple anniversaries, and one was the 50th anniversary of why Hunger, an organization my father started in 1975 with Bill Ayers to try and end hunger and poverty.

Jason Chapin: 4:17

And right around then we also realized 1974 was when Cats in the Cradle came out, went number one and so celebrated its 50th anniversary last year. So we started working on a film about that because, believe it or not, there are a lot of people who know Cats in the Cradle, but they don't necessarily know who wrote it and they've never heard of Harry Chapin. So we're expecting the new film Harry Chapin Cats in the Cradle 50th anniversary to probably be seen by more people and appreciated by more people because of their connection to the song.

Jay Franze: 4:59

Now, you mentioned that people aren't always familiar with the person who wrote the song. Do you ever go out and listen to some of the cover tunes that have been done?

Jason Chapin: 5:08

Yeah, I'm really fascinated whenever I hear a new cover. But you know, over the years it's been an incredible honor and tribute to my father that many legends have recorded Cats in the Cradle Everyone from Ricky Skaggs to Johnny Cash, to Ugly Kid Joe, to this Irish band called Celtic Thunder, to Judy Collins, to Mandy Patinkin and also Daryl McDaniel. So you've got country, you've got rap, mandy Patinkin and also Daryl McDaniel. So you've got country, you've got rap, you've got rock, you've got a little bit of everything folk, and so it's just one of those songs that connects with a lot of artists and connects with a lot of music lovers. And I don't know who's going to do it next, but we will welcome it with open arms.

Jay Franze: 5:56

How do you feel about the Ugly Kid Joe version?

Jason Chapin: 5:58

Oh, I love it. I was, let's see, I was in my late 20s, you know. When I first heard it I thought, wow, that's an interesting take. And then I saw it climb the charts and it peaked at number three. And I thought, wow, a rock version and peaking at number three. And then it's even better because the band would perform in the New York area and my mother went to meet them, went backstage and got to know them and they were as nice as could be.

Jason Chapin: 6:31

And then, when we were putting together the new film, we reached out to the agent and he put us in touch with Whitfield Crane and he is the lead singer and he was all in. He said what can I do? I wanted help. So he not only did an interview and it's it's a big part of the film but he also gave us a bunch of footage from concerts and he tours all over. So he was in Europe and and so a lot of fans at his concerts in different countries, different nationalities, would talk about their connection to the song and with people with Russian accents, Finnish accents, Danish accents talking about that song and singing that song, that's an amazing thing.

Jay Franze: 7:16

Now, I grew up around the Ugly Kid Joe release and I really do love it. I absolutely do. It's my style of music. I love the song, but there's something about your dad's version that you can really connect to.

Jason Chapin: 7:27

You can kind of feel that pain was always writing poetry as an adult, and when my mother and father met, my father was giving her guitar lessons and my father couldn't stop talking. He would talk about anything with anybody, so instead of really focusing on the guitar list, and he was always telling my mother I write poetry, and so he would share some poetry with her. I've got a new song. He would share a new song with her. I don't know how much teaching he was doing, but they really had a connection, a creative connection, because they both like to write poetry, and my father taught my mother how to write songs because my father was writing songs for a TV show that my uncle Tom did. It was a children's show called Make-A-Wish that was on on Saturday mornings and then Sunday mornings, and so my father was kind of juggling a lot of things, couldn't always finish the homework, get the work done in time, so he was asking my mother to help him, and it's actually my mother who was the one who started the song Cats in the Cradle and it started as a poem. She showed it to my father and he said well, that's nice. And then my younger brother, josh, was born and he was looking for some new material. He was working on a new album and digging through the drawer and saw the poem again and said, hmm, this has more meaning to me now. And so he converted the poem to a song.

Jason Chapin: 9:00

And if you look at the single, if you look at the album, it's co-written by Harry and Sandy Chapin. And another thing that's kind of unusual is the song was on the album Verities and Boulder Dash and it was the third single on the song. And if you think about it back in the 70s and you know, my mother told my father there's no way this is gonna be a single, there's no way this has potential because it's about a father and a son. And back then, you know, hit songs were not about fathers and sons, they were about everything. They were about parties, they were about cars, they were about love, they were not about, you know, a dysfunctional relationship between a father and a son. And sure enough it worked its way up to number one.

Jay Franze: 9:46

It was your mother's poem that was the inspiration behind the song, but that poem was written about a previous relationship, correct?

Jason Chapin: 9:54

Yeah. So my mother's first marriage was to Jim Cashmore and Jim's father was John Cashmore, who was the borough president of Brooklyn. He was heavily into politics and Jim was his only son and when my mother married him she observed, you know, she loved Jim. They got married, of course, but she also loved the personality of Jim's father John. But she also loved the personality of Jim's father John and she noticed that they had a very distant relationship. She would tell stories about how she'd be sitting at the table and they wouldn't talk to each other. They would talk through Jim's mother, they would talk through Jim's father and my mother was like the interpreter and she thought this is really strange. She just couldn't understand how they were father and son, but they really did not have a close, loving relationship yeah, that's unfortunate.

Jay Franze: 10:47

I have three kids of my own and I could not possibly imagine not having that relationship with them. It's funny I had kids later in life and I always said, if I do have kids, that I would not let something like this happen to me. And here we are, years later having the conversation about the importance of the song. Now we mentioned Ugly Kid Joe and you said that Whitefield the singer. He did an interview to be part of that documentary. Who else was part of that documentary?

Jason Chapin: 11:18

Oh, it's a great list. We've got Billy Joel, we've got Robert Lamb, judy Collins, manny Penkin, daryl McDaniels and we've got Whit Crane from Ugly Kid Joe, as I mentioned. We've got E Schneider from Twisted Sister.

Jay Franze: 11:38

He's great. What's the connection there?

Jason Chapin: 11:41

Well, he's a Long Islander and you know we lived on Long Island, in Huntington, for many years and he also became a supporter of a food bank my father started in 1980 called Long Island Cares.

Jason Chapin: 11:54

So he was deeply connected to the organization and became connected to my father's legacy organization and became connected to my father's legacy, and so we reached out to him and he said I'd be happy to do the interview and it's great.

Jason Chapin: 12:11

And then we've got a few other people DJ Bob Buckman, who's with Sirius XM now, but he was with BAB, big radio station on Long Island, and we've got family members. And then what's really cool is we've got reaction videos, and I didn't really know about reaction videos until a couple years ago. And so you take you take someone on youtube who's got their own channel and someone feeds them some songs that they know that the dj has never heard of, and then he plays the song and you see him react to the song. And so you got people in their 20s who have no idea who harry is, they have no idea about cats in the cradle, and they're listening to it. And then the tears start pouring and you're thinking, wow, you know, this is. This is fun to see people listen to a song for the first time and get their their first impressions I love those videos.

Jay Franze: 13:00

I actually like the ones that get really technical, go beyond just the story of the song but get into more of the melody and the chord changes, and such One of the other people that was interviewed for the original documentary was Pat Benatar. How did that come about?

Jason Chapin: 13:14

Yeah, she's in the first film and the second film and she was just honored by why Hunger, the organization my father co-founded, at their 50th anniversary gala. She and Neil, her husband, have been big supporters of why Hunger, long Island Cares, and a big part of my father's legacy. It's an interesting story. So Pat was an up and coming musician on Long Island, played at a bar in our hometown, huntington.

Jason Chapin: 13:42

My father was not performing that night but he went to the bar and he was listening to this young talent and at the time he was working on a musical and he heard Pat's voice and said, wow, it's really unique and she's got a lot of personality. So he asked her to audition and she auditioned for the musical and that's when their relationship started and you know they kept in touch and Pat Benatar's career took off and fast forward to 1987, my father had passed and they had a tribute concert for him at Carnegie Hall and so they asked a bunch of artists to perform different songs and Pat Benatar asked to perform Shooting Star and she does a remarkable rendition and she's performed it in her concerts over the years and at the Hawaiian Hunger fundraiser gala she performed that as well, as Love is a Battlefield.

Jay Franze: 14:40

She really is truly amazing. She's one of the best ever. Yeah, but one of the other people you mentioned was billy joel, and I know he's been going through some health struggles, so what was it like with him on the set?

Jason Chapin: 14:56

well, it was. Um, it was part of the interview we did in 2020, so it wasn't a recent interview. Fortunately, there was an interview we did with Bill Maher and gave an update. I guess he still has some balance issues but he's following doctor's orders and feels okay otherwise and hopefully he's going to make a full recovery.

Jay Franze: 15:20

Well, that's good to hear. You also mentioned why Hunger. Now, why Hunger was started by your dad back in 1975 and it still exists today. So can you tell us a little bit about that?

Jason Chapin: 15:32

Yeah, so I'm going to go back to my mother my mother, I think. She always saw my father hitting the road and doing all these concerts, and then he would come home and kind of not know what to do. And my mother was getting involved in lots of community activities and organizations and so she started nudging him, saying, well, you got to find something to get involved with. And it was right around then that he met Bill Ayers, who at the time was a Catholic priest and had a rock radio show on Long Island and my father was on the show and they had a great connection. They had a lot in common and they started a friendship and they were both really looking for something that they could work on together. And Bill was instrumental in helping my father understand that he could use his fame and fortune for good and so kind of motivated him to say, well, I need to do something. And so he started the organization with Bill in 1975 with the lofty goal of ending world hunger. And they really stuck with it.

Jason Chapin: 16:37

My father did about 100 benefit concepts a year, poured a lot of money into the organization to get it off the ground and you know the thing is he passed away six years later, in 1981. And the organization could have folded. But there were a bunch of heroes. My father's manager, ken Cragen, also managed Kenny Rogers and Kenny Rogers stepped in, did a benefit concert and supported. One of their programs was the Harry Chapin Media Awards. And then you know, of course boards do their part. So the boards and staff and volunteers and supporters kept it going and a lot of other musicians also stepped in. So it's not only 50 years old but it's growing and it's getting stronger and it's needed more today than ever before.

Jay Franze: 17:25

Wow, that is definitely impressive and your dad has done so much. And as we talk about your dad, he passed away in 1981 and it seems like he had such a long career, but he was only 38 at the time, correct?

Jason Chapin: 17:38

Yeah, he was 38. And he got a late start in life. I tell people that you know he was not an overnight success. He started in film and then that kind of petered out and then he always loved music.

Jason Chapin: 17:51

He grew up playing music with his brothers, tom and Steve, and they had their own band, the Chapin Brothers, but they put out an album that didn't sell and then my father was the opening act for his brothers. His brothers kicked him out of the band and they rented this place called the Village Gate in the music scene in Manhattan downtown and my father opened as a solo artist for a couple nights and he was horrible. I mean there were about four people in the theater venue and he was horrible. I mean there were about four people in the theater venue and he said I got to figure this out.

Jason Chapin: 18:23

So he put together a band in about a week's time and he had a bunch of songs that he had written and he just decided to go for it and that attracted Jack Holtzman and Clive Davis and he was in the midst of a bidding war and next thing, you know, he's got a 10-album deal with Electric Record. And that was when he was almost I think he was 27. And I think that in 72, he was 30 years old when he had his first hit, and that's pretty old for a musician who's trying to make a go of it and so he passed away at 38. And so he had done 11 albums in 10 years, did 2,000 concerts and he did a bunch of other stuff. But yeah, it was a very brief career.

Jay Franze: 19:15

It was very brief, but man, he did so much in that time. Why did he get kicked out of your brother's band or his brother's band?

Jason Chapin: 19:23

He um, he talked too much. He wrote these really long songs that were really weird and his brothers were going in a different direction. They were playing kind of the soft rock music and they just thought that they had a vocalist and they had a guitarist and he just didn't fit in anymore.

Jay Franze: 19:44

Do they still play?

Jason Chapin: 19:46

Yeah, they do something called the Harry Chapin Family Concert and my Uncle Tom.

Jason Chapin: 19:52

He's got three Grammys and he's put out a ton of albums on his own.

Jason Chapin: 19:57

He's a well-known artist on his own but he also loves playing my father's music and they performed together for a number of years.

Jason Chapin: 20:06

My father welcomed him into the band after his career took off, as well as his brother, steve, so they were reunited, did have a happy ending, and after my father died, fans wanted to hear the music and so they started playing these tribute concerts and then they started putting together the Harry Chapin family concerts and it's grown so it includes my younger sister, jen, tom's daughters, abigail and Lily, steve's son, jonathan, and then John Wallace, original bassist. He's in the group, as is Howard Fields, the original drummer, and then there are a bunch of other musicians in the group and they play up and down the East Coast and they play out in the Midwest and I'm sure that if there's a big theater and enough requests they'll get out to the West Coast and they'd be happy. Actually, they do this a bunch of concerts up in Nova Scotia in August. So my Uncle Steve and Uncle Tom have homes up there and they do a bunch of concerts in Canada as well.

Jay Franze: 21:10

I've only been to Nova Scotia once, but man, what a beautiful place. I know everything has turned out okay now, but at the time when your dad was kicked out of the band, were there any hard?

Jason Chapin: 21:23

feelings? My father. He got used to setbacks and failure. As I said, film didn't work out the way he wanted. He wanted to write a great American novel. That never happened. He wrote a lot of poetry and published poetry books, but I can't say they were big sellers. You know, early on, before he got his record contract, he had some weird dream of becoming an Air Force pilot. So he was actually at the Air Force Academy and about six weeks in he said this is not for me, I don't believe discharged. And then he said I got to go to college. So he went to Cornell. And then he said I got to go to college. So he went to Cornell, got kicked out, went back to Cornell, got kicked out again. So he was used to failure. He was used to, you know, getting knocked down and getting back up. So no hard feelings.

Jay Franze: 22:13

No hard feelings. Well, you mentioned a couple other things. Why did he get kicked?

Jason Chapin: 22:19

out of Cornell. It was a combination of things. He didn't like to go to class, he didn't like to hand in papers, didn't like to show up for exams, because he really was into music and also, frankly, I think, he was pretty depressed because he just didn't know what he wanted to do with his life. And he also spent a lot of time at this bar playing pool and making a little money, so he just it never really connected.

Jason Chapin: 22:45

I think he was highly intelligent and he got a couple doctorates but did not graduate from college.

Jay Franze: 22:54

Yeah, he'd have to be pretty intelligent to get accepted into Cornell in the first place. Yeah. Now, the other thing you mentioned was he was honorably discharged from the Air Force after only six weeks. How does that happen?

Jason Chapin: 23:09

Well, he told a couple stories about that. He said that he thought that it would be really cool to fly jets and then he realized that if you're in the Air Force, you're flying jets but you're bombing people and that just didn't work for him. He didn't want to kill people and think you know, pretty immature when he decided to go and he didn't really think it through. And also I think that they were happy to see him go because I think they found that he was a pain in the butt. He was just, you know, complaining and you know, giving him a hard time and and so fast, forward, forward. His music career takes off and he's playing at different places and he got to play at the Air Force Academy a couple of times and he loved talking about how he was there. He was in debt and they kicked him out and he got to come back and perform and they would cheer him on, and so it came full circle and it had a happy ending.

Jay Franze: 24:05

Now, I know he was known for doing benefits, but did he ever do any of the USO tours?

Jason Chapin: 24:11

He did not do USO tours, but my mother's brother, rocky Gaston, was in the Air Force, so that's pretty ironic. And so he was stationed in Europe, in Germany, and he had a lot of connections, a lot of contacts. So we would go on a family vacation to Germany and my father would play at a bunch of Air Force bases. And I remember also he was playing a concert on the USS Forrestal, an aircraft carrier. At the time it was just off of Naples, italy, and so he got a tour and he did a concert. So there were just a lot of times that he did perform for different military bases in different countries.

Jay Franze: 24:58

How did he begin working with the White House?

Jason Chapin: 25:00

Yeah, so he starts White Hunger in 75 and he's pushing hard. He's just trying to figure out how he can get this organization to help as many people as possible. And he was reading up a lot. He was trying to figure out who were the experts and who could help him make the most of his organization. So he connected with this woman, frances Morlepe, who's still a leader in the movement, and he also was asked by a bunch of members of Congress to do benefit concerts and so I think the light bulb went off and he said you know, there's a lot of money in DC and there are a lot of powerful people in DC. I'm going to spend some time down there and lobby them to see if they can help me. And he was also very good friends with John Denver and John Denver was very involved in trying to end hunger early in his career. So they would have some conversations.

Jason Chapin: 25:57

And then Bill Ayers was also involved in the strategy sessions and my father at the time involved in the strategy sessions and my father at the time you know he was lobbying everybody and he would hang out in the men's room in the Capitol and in different legislative buildings. Because you know, word got around that Harry Chapin was visiting everybody to try and get them to do something and they started to avoid him. So he would hang out in the men's room and try and pin him down. And so he was trying to pin down Senator Patrick Leahy from Vermont, and not only did he pin him down, but they actually struck up a friendship. So Pat Leahy became his mentor, his guide, to kind of navigate through Washington, and they came up with the idea of petitioning President Carter for a presidential commission.

Jason Chapin: 26:47

And they finally had the meeting. They had an initial meeting in the cabinet room and then they had a meeting to make the final push. And Patrick Leahy tells a really funny story about how, you know, they start the conversation and President Carter says well, you know, I think that's a fine idea and let's do it. And then my father heard that, but he couldn't stop talking. He kept giving him more reasons why they should do the commission and Pat Lay had to elbow him and said you already got. Yes, don't blow it Right.

Jay Franze: 27:19

Was your dad political at all?

Jason Chapin: 27:22

He was political. And again, my mother nudged him when we were living in another town on Long Island, point Lookout, and got him to volunteer for a campaign with a congressional incumbent who was running for re-election. So he was the speechwriter and they give you about nine titles as a volunteer and he was also writing a bunch of literature titles as a volunteer and he was also writing a bunch of literature. So I think that was something that he felt, you know, was challenging but also worthwhile. And then, once he really committed to fighting hunger and poverty, he met a lot of members of the House and Senate and struck up a lot of friendships Senator Bill Bradley and Representative Ben Gilman and Senator Byron Dorgan and many others and so they became part of this group that were always talking about politics. But my father also was very proud to say that he would do benefit concerts for Democrats, republicans, independents, anybody, as long as they were on his side trying to end hunger.

Jay Franze: 28:25

Yeah, being a nonpartisan cause, that would make sense anyway. Absolutely. You got a question in the chat. Were there any other singer-songwriters that your dad looked up to and liked to follow?

Jason Chapin: 28:37

Yeah, you know he got to play with a lot of artists Billy Joel in the first film, second film about how you know they. They did a lot of concerts. Initially Billy Joel opened for my father and then my father would open for Billy Joel. They had a lot in common. Also, my father, through Ken Cragen, had a very good friendship, did a bunch of concerts with Kenny Rogers, and then I mentioned John Denver. They shared the same manager for a while and they had a good friendship and, I think, recognized each other as singer-songwriters and songwriters and also my father was again trying to raise money for why Hunger.

Jason Chapin: 29:20

So he did a concert and it's on YouTube and it's called Four Together. It was in Detroit, michigan, 1977. He did a concert with John Denver, james Taylor and Gordon Lightfoot. It was a round stage and they took turns playing each other's songs and unfortunately they didn't video it and there's just some rough recordings of it. But yeah, he loved all of them. Judy Collins he also one of his idols and one of his heroes was Pete Seeger. They played a lot of concerts together.

Jay Franze: 29:56

Those are some pretty impressive names, but they all have that same singer-songwriter feel to them. But you did mention Billy Joel and also a priest that was into rock and roll. Did your dad have that rock and roll side to him?

Jason Chapin: 30:10

yeah, most most people that they, if they've heard of Perry Chapin, they know taxi, they know cats and cradle and ironically, almost nobody you know knows that he had a follow up hit to Taxi called Sequel. Taxi peaked at 24. Sequel came out in 1980, peaked at 23, and then he had another big hit, wold. But he had a lot of other fan favorites and and he had a bunch of songs that I think were very rock-ish and some of them are really intense. He's got a song called Sniper, he's got another song called Bummer. There's a tribute concert and these guys love to play another song called the Rock and he has other songs that I think are country.

Jason Chapin: 31:01

He did an album after Verity's and Bulldash's album. It was a couple albums later called Living Room Suite and he was really at that point starting to follow and really enjoy country music. So Living Room Suite is kind of his country music album. And then he also, you know he came from the folk background, so a lot of his songs were folkish and he did not like disco and he used to always talk about how he didn't like disco in concert. So you're not going to find any disco songs but you'll definitely find a couple other genres.

Jay Franze: 31:33

Who would be the most unexpected artist that he followed?

Jason Chapin: 31:37

Well, you know, because he was signed with Elektra, he would get a bunch of Electra artists and so he listened to their stuff and I don't, I don't know what the wildest thing that he picked on his own, but he had five kids and we all listened to different music and I think he thought we were going through a stage. But, you know, I definitely had my rock stage. I was, you know, as a teenager, and still am, a big Led Zeppelin fan, rolling Stones fan who bad company? You can go right down the list. And so I think my father heard a lot of rock music because his kids were listening to it.

Jay Franze: 32:17

Well, he was able to identify Pat Benatar's talent.

Jason Chapin: 32:20

Yeah.

Jay Franze: 32:21

You also mentioned Led Zeppelin. What are your feelings now with the reunion?

Jason Chapin: 32:26

You know, I love the documentary that just came out and I love some of the things Robert Plant, alison Krauss just the fact that he's been out there every year just touring and Jimmy Page genius, almost unmatched talent. And you know we don't have John Bottom anymore but we've got his son, so it's almost the full band. So, yeah, I think it's great. I'd love to see him. I'm sure that they'll sell out think it's great.

Jay Franze: 33:05

I'd love to see them. I'm sure that they'll sell out. That's funny. Chris Franz was on the show. He's the guitar tech for Jason Bonham's team and when they came through town I got a chance to see them and it was an amazing show. It was the Led Zeppelin experience and it was just amazing. All right, let's take it back. We mentioned at the beginning that your dad had a love for documentaries, so what inspired you to put this documentary together and what is your role?

Jason Chapin: 33:26

So it's funny, my father wrote this song called Circle and he ended his concerts with the song Circle. So a lot of things come full circle. So Bill Ayers at the time was running why Hunger and met a couple people who were helping him with a benefit concert. A guy named Rick Korn and SA Barron became friends of Bill's, worked together on a few projects, and so Rick said to Bill one night how come nobody's ever done a documentary about Harry Chapin? And Bill said I don't know, but why don't you? And so Bill connected Rick and I and Bill said I don't know, but why don't you? And so Bill connected Rick and I and Rick and SA came to my house and I invited my mother over to discuss the possibility of a documentary. And Rick and SA show up with a camera and started interviewing my mother and I on the spot.

Jason Chapin: 34:19

And so somehow we realized that I think we were starting to make a film and I had never made a film. I don't have a background in film, but I thought it was pretty cool that I'm making a film about my father who had a film career, and then, you know, to be a producer of that film was, you know, a once in a lifetime. But then I was asked to get involved and help with the second film. So here I am, a producer again and uh, and it was also at my mother's insistence that any profits, uh, with both films will be shared with the three charities. Why hunger, long island cares and a foundationary champion foundation, which was started after my father passed.

Jay Franze: 35:06

That is very cool that your mother is insisting it be done. Yeah, now you say you're the producer, so what is the role of a producer when it comes to this documentary?

Jason Chapin: 35:16

My role was really to help raise money to help line up the interviews, so I put out a lot of requests to ask people if they would be interviewed and also help us promote the film.

Jason Chapin: 35:33

And then we have a lot of meetings where we have to figure out the marketing and the promotion PR firm and coordinating the interviews and the press package. And then there's a lot of discussions about the trailer and we spent a lot of time lining up a distributor, mvd. So we're very excited about having them as our partner and film's going to be released November 4th or thereabouts and it's going to be on all the major streaming platforms Apple TV, amazon Prime and a bunch of others. It's also going to be released on DVD. It's not going to have a theater release, but we've also done some fundraisers where we do a private screening, where we do a private screening, and it's also going to be in a film festival. August 8th the Long Island Music and Entertainment Hall of Fame is having their first film festival, southampton Film Festival. So hoping we can hopefully do well in those and get a little momentum going right up to the release.

Jay Franze: 36:40

Now you mentioned you had to handle the outreach and the PR and the marketing. What was the hardest part in that process?

Jason Chapin: 36:49

I think fundraising is really hard because typically you know everyone's got their own causes or you know they're connected to something and so you're asking them to give money to a project, and typically documentaries don't make money. So it's not like if you ask someone to invest in the film that there's a guarantee that they're going to get the money back. But fortunately, you know incredible generosity. A lot of fans wanted to donate and contribute and also uh, we did a lot of uh, we did go fund me and we also did um, you know some other things to raise awareness. So you know a couple hundred people, but each and every one of them is important and contributed to make it possible. And then we also had to line up some folks who I think, are going to end up being sponsors. So that's also another item on the checklist that we've been focusing on.

Jay Franze: 37:54

Now you've mentioned the charities and the organizations that you've had a chance to work with, but those are all based around a cause. Do you find it harder to raise money for a movie?

Jason Chapin: 38:05

Yes and no. There are some people who, just, you know, they've been donating to my father's charities and this was just another thing that they wanted to be a part of. There are also other people who were fans of my father's music, didn't know about the charities and they thought, wow, you know, this is the way that I could also support the charities, so that was a factor. They're also, you know, just friends of friends and they're also family members who contributed. So, you know, you just put the word out. You know you don't twist arms. But when people say, you know, they got a few questions and you answer the questions and they say, yeah, I'll do it, it's a great feeling. And also, you know, there are some folks who contribute to the film, who are also in the film, so I think that was also a bonus for them.

Jay Franze: 38:55

So you've mentioned crowdsourcing and you've mentioned fan involvement when it comes to the crowdsourcing. So how did you let the fans know that this was even an option?

Jason Chapin: 39:07

So you have to, you know, go on the social media platforms and get the word out. We also have some, we've got some large fan lists, so we were doing some e-blasts and also some of it's word of mouth, and then we put together a website and we put together a trailer, and so you just keep plugging away and just trying to reach more and more people in different ways and then eventually you get to the goal and then you're off to the races.

Jay Franze: 39:38

So you mentioned that documentaries don't typically make money and that the investors may not even see return on their investment. But earlier you mentioned that your mother insisted on giving the profit to charity. So how can you ensure that this documentary is going to be different and that there's going to be money to give to the charities when it's all over?

Jason Chapin: 40:03

No guarantees. Again, you know it's a heavy lift, but the distributor's got to make sure that it gets on as many platforms as possible and also that we've got a PR firm, so they want to make sure as many people know about it as possible. And then, you know, we've got a lot of great musicians, so we will ask them if they can help promote the film. And then we're also going to do we call them docu-concerts, where we're going to ask some musicians to perform, we're going to show some clips of the film and they're also going to be fundraisers for the charities. And then we'll also put a lot of information on social media and ask friends and family to share all the content and make sure that all of their networks know about it. And then we cross our fingers.

Jason Chapin: 40:55

When we released the first film it was during COVID we thought that, you know, everyone would be dying to see our film. It turns out there were a lot of other films coming out at the same time and, uh, you know, so there's a lot of competition. But we're also I think we've, we're pretty confident that a lot of people have heard of the song and, uh, they see the trailer and they hear some good things. They're going to want to see the film.

Jay Franze: 41:19

Now you mentioned the movie being distributed out to the streaming services. Yeah, how do the streaming services pay you? Is it based on streams, a flat fee advertising? How does that process work?

Jason Chapin: 41:35

I am not an expert, but there are different platforms and different paying methods. So if it's on something like Netflix, then it's basically a cost sharing. They show it and then a number of people watch it, and then they split some of the money. And then there are also other platforms where there's advertisements. So the advertisers are basically paying for a lot of it and then sharing some of that. And then there are others where it's basically renting it. So you basically say, ok, I want to watch this film and you're going to pay whatever it is $9.99. And then, or you can buy it, and also with DVDs, that's also a profit sharing arrangement. Dvds that's also a profit sharing arrangement. So there are a bunch of different ways that the money comes in and then you just got to wait because they don't all pay instantly. You have to do all these quarterly and semi-annually statements and it's all complicated. But yeah, that's what the distributors do. They keep track of all that?

Jay Franze: 42:46

Yeah, it definitely is a convoluted process these days, but you mentioned the music. Was all of the music in the movie from your dad, or did we have any guest appearances?

Jason Chapin: 42:59

Well, the music is basically from the catalog and we've got some concert videos that we were able to use and then he was on a number of shows.

Jason Chapin: 43:07

So we were able to get some of those clips, some of those videos, and also we have some from the 1987 Carnegie Hall tribute concert and then we have a bunch of clips and this is really fun. My daughter, katie, is pretty good with computers and I asked her a few years ago because I knew there were all these TV shows, movies, commercials that used the song and I asked her to put together a montage and it's on YouTube. It's a Harry Chapin Cats in the Cradle montage and it shows all of the you know TV shows, everything from modern family to to some of the cartoons and then some of the commercials and some of the movies, like Shrek, the third three, and I saw it in show yeah. So you know, just having a bunch of those clips in the film is a lot of fun and you know, I think my daughter's you know she gets a credit because she put together the montage and they took some clips out of the montage.

Jay Franze: 44:16

Again very nice.

Jason Chapin: 44:18

It's pretty funny to have Cats in the Cradle and the Simpsons Right.

Jay Franze: 44:22

Or Shrek or any of the others. You mentioned having to put together a trailer Now, as the person who has to be the one to go out and promote the movie, how much say do you have in the final trailer?

Jason Chapin: 44:35

Close to zero. I mean, basically that's Rick and Essay's domain, but they would send us different versions and ask us what we liked. And you know I'm not a heavy editor, I think they're the pros. So I didn't really make a lot of suggestions. But you know, basically even my general thoughts thumbs up and it was a wrap.

Jay Franze: 44:56

Yeah, I can definitely see why you might not be involved in the editing or the creative process, but I would think you would need to be involved in the overall approval, because that's what you're going to use to then market the documentary.

Jason Chapin: 45:09

Yeah, I mean, if my instinct said, oh my God, this is not good, then I would have told them. But I think they did a great job and I don't think there was anything I could add to it.

Jay Franze: 45:18

Yeah, it would be hard to sell it.

Jason Chapin: 45:30

Yeah, it'd be hard to sell it. Looking back at the documentary and your life itself and the time you spent with your dad, do you have any memorable moments that you could share with us? Birthday celebration? So we were, you know, talking a little bit about my father and I reflected on how you know he came into my life.

Jason Chapin: 45:47

He was my stepfather before he became my father and my earliest memories are playing sports with him. He was a sports nut, loved watching sports, playing sports, so I got really hooked on sports because of him, played lots of sports in high school, still play a lot of sports and I have so many great memories of playing football in the backyard or tennis or baseball or golf, and you know it's a big part of the time that we spent together. And also just a lot of memories of going to different concerts with him. And I remember another time he was doing a TV special, so I went with him to London because he was interviewing Peter Sellers and so I just have all these memories of these very special times with him and it's just.

Jason Chapin: 46:40

I think that there are just a lot of things that I think he influenced in me. Obviously, you know I work for a non-profit, very involved with the charities and very focused on doing my part, doing something to end a hunger. So you know, he kind of um, he left too soon, but he also kind of uh, got us all involved in what he's doing and we're all trying to do our part.

Jay Franze: 47:06

We often discuss the decisions that need to be made when it comes to having children. Do you take those children on the road or do you leave them at home? From a child's point of view, did you enjoy your time on the road?

Jason Chapin: 47:20

Yeah, we combined a lot of family vacations with him doing mini tours because I think he just needed to perform, he just needed to get up on stage. And then there were some times where there were just, you know, mini trips where it was just family time. Like you know, we would go up to Vermont and go skiing. So it was kind of a mix, but yeah, it was fun. It was fun going to the concerts, sometimes sitting in the audience, sometimes being backstage, and it was also a lot of fun whenever he was playing new material, just because he was always anxious to get the fan reaction.

Jay Franze: 47:53

Did you enjoy seeing your dad's success?

Jason Chapin: 47:57

Absolutely. I couldn't be prouder. I couldn't be prouder, couldn't have been happier with him getting all of the recognition that he was craving for. Did you know it at the time? No, no, no. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know about you know, I was just a little kid and so I didn't really know A lot about concerts, didn't know about him being on Johnny Carson and putting out these albums. I just I didn't know. He was my only dad, really, so I didn't really know what the other dads were doing, but I just thought it was a little strange because I didn't know anyone else who did that.

Jay Franze: 48:43

I always laugh. I have three daughters. I have a 15-year-old, a 10-year-old and a 3-year-old and I always ask them when an artist comes through town if they want to go and check out the show and typically they say no. But lately my 10-year-old has taken me up on it a couple of times and I've taken her to see the Oak Ridge Boys and Brooks and Dunn and maybe a few others and I'm afraid now to take her to see a concert where I don't know somebody and she doesn't get treated like a rock star.

Jason Chapin: 49:12

Well, also, I have a feeling your other kids are going to say wait a second, that's special time with dad. So you may get a few others who are going to sign up.

Jay Franze: 49:21

Right Now, I can see that happening too. Alright, sir. Well, we do this thing here we call Unsung Heroes, where we take a moment to shine the light on somebody that's worked behind the scenes or somebody who may have supported you along the way. Do you have anybody that you would like to shine a little light on?

Jason Chapin: 49:35

not only with music but the charities, and she's also been a great mentor to me, helping me make some of my life decisions about careers and different things that I've gotten involved with.

Jay Franze: 49:59

So she's the one. Do you think it was her influence that led to your dad's success?

Jason Chapin: 50:18

Yeah, yeah. I think that you know it was the confidence that she gave him, the encouragement that she gave him, and holding down the fort when he was on the road, I think that he knew she was his rock. He knew that he could go out and do all the crazy things you need to do in that business and she was going to um support him in every way she could.

Jay Franze: 50:35

That's pretty cool. She also had to be pretty young when your father passed away, right?

Jason Chapin: 50:39

Yeah, but she was eight years older, so he married an older woman and, uh, she was uh in her forties when he passed away.

Jay Franze: 50:49

That's sad as I look at it now. I was 40 when I got married, so it's got to be tough. All right, sir. One last question for you. What is your connection to the High Mountain Breezes?

Jason Chapin: 51:03

Through Peggy's job in the office. She told me about them and wanting to do a cover of one of my father's songs and, um, and I listened to it. It's fabulous. Uh, I know that. Um, I think the album is out. They're coming out soon, I can't remember, but uh, you know it's, yeah, just really happy about that connection well, they are not only great people, they are absolutely amazingly talented. Yeah.

Jay Franze: 51:34

All right, folks. Well, we have done it. We have reached the top of the hour, which does mean we have reached the end of the show. And, as we say here, if you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend, and if you have not, well, tell two. You can reach out to both of us over at jayfranze. com and we will be happy to keep this conversation going. All right, sir. With that said, I would like to leave the final words to you.

Jason Chapin: 51:58

Well, it's great being with you. Appreciate you having me on. I love talking about music because music connects so many people in so many ways, and we can all tell stories about our first concert or our first album. And my daughters just gave me a record player for my birthday, so I'm building up my vinyl collection again and also, you know, I just I love having the opportunity to also talk about my father's credo, which is, when in doubt, do something. We need people to get involved, whatever their cause is, whatever their passion is. You know, we need more people to help those who need help and to get other people involved, because we haven't figured everything out and we got a lot of needs and we got a lot of needs and we got a lot of people who are hurting, and so if you can help people, uh, please do so you know you keep doing it every time you say something.

Jay Franze: 53:00

There's something else I want to know first concert, first album first.

Jason Chapin: 53:06

You know, obviously my father's uh albums were my first albums, and then he would bring home some, so it may have been, you know, may have been james taylor, uh, first one that he brought home that I listened to. Could have been john denver, but um first major concert I went to was foreigner at madison square garden.

Jay Franze: 53:29

Not too shabby. You know, the original singer is supposed to be joining the band again.

Jason Chapin: 53:34

Lou Graham.

Jay Franze: 53:35

Actually have an original member back in the band hey if the Stones are going strong with their 60th.

Jason Chapin: 53:42

You know, and that's the thing, these guys live forever. So why not get out there and perform?

Jay Franze: 53:47

All right, folks On that note have a good night.

Tony Scott: 53:52

Thanks for listening to the Jay Franzi show. Make sure you visit us at jayfranze. com. Follow, connect and say hello.